I interviewed for a new job today at another company, and although I have no idea I'll get it, I think it went well. In the conversation with the HR rep, most of the "circumstances" of the job (salary, benefits, etc.) seemed to be in line with what I have at my current job, and the work they're doing may be a significant upgrade in terms of what I'd be doing on Day One, and what I could work myself into in the future. There are slight differences in certain benefits areas, etc. but most key things I'm concerned about seem compatible.

The one reservation I have is that the company only provides for 2 weeks vacation (along with 10 paid holidays) until you're there for 5 years. I asked if this is negotiable, as most terms are, but she assured me that this is a company-wide policy and they don't make exceptions.

Now, I know 2 weeks is pretty standard for someone starting off at a new job, but after only 3 years at my current job I was eligible for 3 weeks, and I could purchase a 4th week that I'd get reimbursed for if I didn't take it. I found it very strange that the company wouldn't consider adjusting this policy, but I got the distinct impression there was no wiggle room.

So would any of my fellow full-time Americans care to comment on paid time off policies at their workplace? Is it uncommon for someone to be given 3 weeks vacation to start a new job? Are most companies similarly firm in not negotiating the # of weeks vacation? I just want to get a feel for if I'm spoiled now by having 3 weeks vacation, or if I'd be justified in being a little hesitant to accept an offer where I have to work for 5 years before I get a third week. I'm trying to weigh the various pluses and minuses of this opportunity in case I do end up getting an offer.

Thanks.

Greetings!

Where I am (large corporation), we would give 2 weeks for someone just starting, an addition week after 7 years, and another week at 15 years. There would be about 7 holidays. But you would also get 4 personal days and 3 "floating holidays" that you could take at will. Plus the ability to purchase a week of extra "unpaid" time.

The trick is actually getting the time / project schedule to use it all...

OK, I'll jump in. Yes, Tony, you're spoiled.

I work for a major telecom-industry company, and here's what our policy has been through many years/name changes: 1 week vac. until 5 years; 2 weeks until 15 years; 3 weeks until 20 years; 4 weeks after 20 years. 1 additional week purchasable at any time (this will go up in Jan.). Only 7 paid holidays, BTW (e.g., no Presidents' Day or Good Friday/Easter Monday off, but oddly the Friday off after Thanksgiving avery year).

Edit: yeah, I forgot the 4 personal & 3 "floating" holidays.

i believe i accrue 2.5 days per month and cant keep more than 60 into the next year. i think....

2 weeks up to five years is standard for the 3 US companies that I've worked for. My current employer did give me "time served" credit for my previous industry experience that counted towards my seniority date and consequently, accelerated when I was eligible for an extra week. You may be able to do the same.

Here at LucasLand we get 13 paid holidays, 2 weeks paid vacation for a new employee up to three years, then 3 weeks for the fourth through seventh years, and after 8 it's 4 weeks paid vacation. Plus we get one personal day which we can use for whatever each calendar year. Vacation time is accrued... so we get so many hours toward the vacation time per week worked, as opposed to a lump 2 weeks automatically at the beginning of each year.

Boy was I bummed when i was in Vienna and they said they got something like 4 or 5 weeks STARTING.

I can't speak to the policies of generic American firms, but I can speak to your negotiating power. If you have multiple offers, and the sticking point for you is their vacation policy, do make that clear. It might shake loose an exception to the supposedly hard-and-fast rule.

(Or, just become an academic. There's no official vacation policy, but then nobody really cares when or how long you take off as long as you're around enough to handle your deadlines and other responsibilities. Going to a conference in an exotic location during the summer? Stay for an extra week? Sure, why not? One of my colleagues spent most of the summer in Europe. Of course, he has tenure...)

I guess I've been spoiled, but I got two weeks off the first year with 4 floating holidays, year 2-4 I got three weeks with 5 FH's, and when I hit 5 years I now get 4 weeks off with 6 FH's. They are really good with family leave, too, and there isn't a limit on sick days (although after a while you'll go on short-term disability).

I'm at a smal (150 people) company in Minneapolis, and we get one week after one year, two after two, three after five, and four weeks after ten years. 8 paid holidays plus one "floater". That must be pretty typical, since if our HR doesn't quite know what to do about something, they go run some surveys and then aim our policy right at what is "most common".

We get two weeks starting and get three weeks after five years. I came in with two others (including my boss), and we negotiated for three weeks since we each have 10+ years experience. The extra week doesn't accrue, though, so I don't get it paid back to me if I leave.

How many years of experience do you have? If you have moe than five, I would try to get an extra week. I thought it was funny that our company was only giving two weeks of vacation when all the new hires had lots of experience.

As usual, lots of great points made by all.

->pgrzelak:

Plus the ability to purchase a week of extra "unpaid" time.

That is really something I like about what I have where I'm at. I buy the extra week every year and if I don't use it, I get the money back. That's a luxury I'd hate to lose.

->Mach:

My current employer did give me "time served" credit for my previous industry experience that counted towards my seniority date and consequently, accelerated when I was eligible for an extra week.

That's something I'd really like them to do, but I'm a little leery of being too pushy on the issue. I think their logic is they want you to prove to them you have loyalty to them. They couldn't care less that I showed loyalty to my current employer for 5 years.

->DWallach:

I can't speak to the policies of generic American firms, but I can speak to your negotiating power. If you have multiple offers, and the sticking point for you is their vacation policy, do make that clear. It might shake loose an exception to the supposedly hard-and-fast rule.

Yeah, I did try to negotiate, but I didn't push it too much. I mentioned that I have 3 and can buy a 4th, but she said "my hands are tied" and "we're trying to change it, but right now, it's 2 weeks for everyone." I always operate under the assumption that all these rules are negotiable, but I also have to think that maybe they've made a blanket "no exceptions" statement. Since today was my first round of interviews I was a little hesitant to take a more strong negotiating stance, I'll save that for if I get an offer on the table.

Or, just become an academic.

I hate you.

->loren

Boy was I bummed when i was in Vienna and they said they got something like 4 or 5 weeks STARTING.

Tell me about it! This is exactly why I said "For USAians" in the title. I didn't want to hear all the Euros gloating about ther 350 days of vacation each year.

->Folsom

How many years of experience do you have? If you have moe than five, I would try to get an extra week.

I have been at Vanguard since June 1999. That makes it 4 years and some change... But since it's my 5th *calendar year* (99, 00, 01, 02, 03) that's how they count years of service. So 2003 is the first year I've gotten the 3rd week, and I purchased the 4th, which I may sell back this year. But going back to 2 weeks might be very tough on the soul. I guess I need to do some more probing to try to see how serious they are about "no exceptions."

One of the the delights of moving from the UK to the USA is the absolutely crappy vacation time in the USA.
You think going from 3 weeks to two is bad you should try going from FIVE weeks down to two !

Just to chime in, for local government, we get a day a month plus your birthday until 5 years (13 days) then 1.5 days a month until 10 years (19 days), then 2 days a month after 10 years (25 days). Plus 12 paid holidays. (Mardi Gras is included)

Leaning shovel not included.

-Zeke

Seriously though...

My job (started 1994) had 0 weeks of for my first year, two after that, three at 5 years and 4 at 10. Since then it's relaxed and now everyone gets 2 to start and 3 weeks after three years. Slackers!

Of course, I also bring my dog to work and the president often comes in wearing sandals ripped shorts and a Hawaiian shirt during the summer.

-Zeke

Hmm... that's pretty crappy. Everyone at my company starts with 3 weeks + 10 holidays. After 2 years, it's 4 weeks, at 6 years, it's 5 weeks, and at 10 years, 6 weeks. On top of that, artists get an additional 6 weeks, though the company can dictate when they can take it if we're in a slow period. There's no cap on the amount of vacation we can roll over. This is, of course, all negotiable.

In addition to that, we have the option of taking our overtime hours as time off (at 1.5x the number of hours worked), or getting it paid out. (At the moment, I have ~6.5 weeks of this comp time.)

Oh, yeah -- and every 5 years, we're given two months paid time off for sabbatical. (3 years, 2 months to go!)

I'm not sure what the rules are for freelance workers -- I doubt they get the 6 weeks additional, as when we're in a slow period, we just wouldn't renew their contract.

I guess that's probably as close to European vacation time like as one gets on this continent.

(My previous company in Canada gave 2 weeks, 3 @ 5 years, and 4 @ 10. Non-negotiable.)

I didn't want to hear all the Euros gloating about ther 350 days of vacation each year

OK, OK, it's not 350 days/year, not really, believe me, it's only ....#!§$@?#&connection terminated...



cheers, germany

Back when I prowled around cubesville, I got 3 weeks vacation fresh from university, and a 4th week after 10yrs. In Canada. The company later adopted USAian like policies, reducing the initial offering to 2 weeks, adding the 3rd week back in after three (or five?) years. I take about 26 weeks nowadays.

Cheers

At a US based company I got 2 weeks until 5 years of service then I got 3 weeks. I started for a UK based company (but working in US) and now I get 4 weeks, 5 after 5 years, plus a 4 week sabbatical after 5 years. And I can buy a week for a week's salary or sell one for a week's salary. They used to let us sell a week for 5% of our salary, but not anymore after last year. 10 holidays at both companies, but the UK based employer doesn't provide floater days, we get Good Friday, Easter Monday, Christmas Eve and Boxing Day instead. All in all a much better deal now...

Ouch! 25 days from day one here in the Boxer empire. plus stats. Rising to my current status of: That oldie with the moustache, is he still on the payroll - what does he do?

I get close to 40 days/year. I'm not complaining!

They try to keep the benefits as even as possible around the world for the employees. Where we (USAians) really make it out well is on the medical benefits. Zero dollars per pay period for the entire family, $10 office visits, select your own doctor, etc, etc. But I don't have any dependents, so it's not as good as a deal for me. Adn the usual 401k match and stock purchase plan, though not a nice of a plan as at the other company.

Just to add an interesting sidebar to the discussion:

Accrued vacation time.

Our company was based in California and was privately owned. Under that owner, our vacation time was accrued. In other words if you didn't take all your vacation time in the year 1992, then those days were added to your available total for the year 1993. And so on.

Some people in the company didn't take vacations often and had accrued large amounts of vacation time, allowing them to do things like take two months off one year (after making sure that their projects could be covered by others in their abscence... they weren't jerks about it or anything).

Then, our company was purchased by a large multinational corporation based in the state of Michigan. We are still located in California, but we are now a branch office of a Michigan company.

Their vacation time policy is "use it or lose it". If you don't take all your vacation in the year 2001, you don't get to carry those days over to 2002.

It was my understanding that "use it or lose it" is actually illegal in the state of California. But they said it's legal for them to do it to us because of <some Klingon-worded legal reason I didn't understand>. They've got many dozens of branch offices in California already, and their main business is employment itself, so they definitely know their legal grounds well. I just think it's totally unfair.

I work for the state, which many years ago would have been good.
Nowadays it just means crappy pay, crappy benefits and no job security.
Check this out....
$300-$400 family health, $20 copay, 12 days holiday + 12 days vacation. The real kicker with the health now is that hospital copays are humongous, $500 a day limited to 'only' $2500
Meds are now $20 per item as well.
Optical is nonexistent, dental is a joke (15% discount).

When I was managing retail shops in California in the early 90's, we were required to pay out any unused vacation time at the end of the year (I can't remember if it was calendar or fiscal), or when an employee left. We really pushed them to take their vacation.

Don't get me started on labor law in CA... Just trying to keep in compliance and protect the company from lawsuits cost about 10 to 15 hours a week of my time. We had to document everything in just such a way so we could win the lawsuit when we termed someone for cause (mostly theft or incompetence), or if they quit (yeah, they'd quit, then sue us claiming that we made the workplace unworkable). Very tiring.

-jk

I was wondering about that topic too, Tony. In my dad's business, it is also "use it or lose it." He was tired of people taking off large amounts of time. Typically, though, people are so irresponsible with their leave time, they wouldn't have any to carry over anyway. So many people will take a day here and there in the first 5 months of the year, then November rolls around and they're sick as a dog but can't miss work.

That's another topic that I haven't seen mentioned here once: sick days. Does anyone's company differentiate? Since my father manages his business, he decided that he was tired of people calling in and faking sick, so they did away with sick days and went to a single number.

Oh, and there's a guy in my girlfriend's office who's been there forever, and he never takes a sick day. He must have years of sick days saved up.

One system I thought sounded pretty good was that you could only accrue one year of leave, so that every year you would lose the days of leave you didn't take two years ago. That sounds pretty reasonable to me.

Yeah, sick days are also an issue.

Prior company: No such thing as sick days. X number of paid "personal days" which could be used for anything you wanted (such as unexpected lack of daycare for your kid), but recommended that you save them for when you're really sick.

New company: You have to actually be sick to take a sick day. So it means we "Play The Game" which to me is really childish, but hey, they're the ones who set it up to work that way.

Oh, and there's a guy in my girlfriend's office who's been there forever, and he never takes a sick day. He must have years of sick days saved up.

Does he work as a security guard?

We get 10 days/year sick pay which refreshes each January. They don't accrue/rollover.

Do you have a policy that sick days must only be used for when you're actually sick? Or do you have to Play The Game if you need an extra day off?

Where I work is the same way, on paper. In real life though the boss knows where everyone is at, and if you carry a few days into (or even borrow a few from) next year it's really just no big deal. Several weeks would be a problem, but one is not.

The understood policy is that you have to actually be sick. But everyone plays the game. There've been times when HR just let me use a few sick days over xmas holiday instead of taking unpaid days though. They are generally "cool" about that sort of stuff.

As a company they can't say "hell yea! take off a free day when you don't feel like coming in and just use a sick day!", but they don't require doctors forms or anything. It's an honor system type thing.

As a company they can't say "hell yea! take off a free day when you don't feel like coming in and just use a sick day!"

Why not? Our old company did and I never saw a problem with it.

Because we have vacation time and personal days allotted for that. If they were to lump the sick days and vacation time into one, then yeah, i agree with you. Then you just have a pool of days to do with what you wish. But, the bad side of that is if someone is legitimately sick for two weeks... then they get screwed out of having any vacation. I for one would much rather have it the way it is than to risk something like that. I've been sick for two weeks at a time in the past.

Yeah, I see. In our current company, there are no "personal days", just sick days, holidays, and vacation days.

What happens if you are sick for more than 10 days, do you not get paid ? Sound like a benefit of living in the UK finally...

Not sure. I'm guessing you could then take some sort of sick leave or disability?... i doubt they would just cut you off. I'd have to ask what the policy is on that though.

What happens if you are sick for more than 10 days, do you not get paid ?

Pretty much, at least at my company. My wife had surgery so I took sick leave to help her get back on her feet. After all my sick leave I had to start taking vacation time and working odd hours to make it all up. But that's the way it goes I suppose.

Here it 10hrs/mo up to 10yrs service, 12hrs/mo>15yrs, 14hrs/mo>20yrs, and 16hrs/mo after 25. Sick leave is 8hr/mo. no accrual limit. Vacation accrual is limited to amount that can be accrued in 24 mos. The supervisors make special visits to encourage some use of leave time if you loose any accrual.

Unused sick leave becomes additional service time when caculating retirement.

No buying or selling but, you may xfer sick leave to others with great need.

No buying or selling but, you may xfer sick leave to others with great need.

Now THAT is a great idea. Very cool indeed.

Since everyone else is posting, I get zero hours sick leave, zero hours vacation, and unpaid enforced holidays. Great, huh?

Since everyone else is posting, I get zero hours sick leave, zero hours vacation, and unpaid enforced holidays

Me too, like most IT contractors. Though I am paid well and my last six month contract lasted six years. I hope the current six month contract doesn't last that long as I'm not really enjoying it.

Since everyone else is posting

OK, why not...

You guys probably won't believe this, but I don't even *know* what my benefits are as far as time off goes.

I think I get two or three weeks vacation, but in the past ten years I've only taken about 10 days off of work (most of that was to go pick up the ShoWagon in New Hampshire and drive it back to Alaska.)

I did take half a day's sick leave when I had hernia repair surgery (I scheduled the surgery for a Friday afternoon so I'd have the weekend to recuperate.) There are maybe 8 or 10 days a year they don't let me come to work because of some holiday or something.

I am good enough at what I do, and have been doing it long enough and reliably enough, that I can do pretty much what I want here at work. If I want to take three hours in the afternoon to go over to the stereo shop, nobody will say a thing or even wonder where I've gone. If I want to play DOOM or Quake3 on my computer in the middle of the afternoon, the boss will come over and make fun of me because I let Xaero kill me yet again in the final level.

The money's not great, but it's enough to keep a roof over my head and food in my belly and pay for what few toys (empeg; ShoWagon; a few odds and ends) that I covet, and barring any really unforseen circumstances (hyperinflation to pay for President Bush's adventuring in Iraq comes to mind) I could quit working tomorrow and live the rest of my life in modest comfort.

It's not so much that I like my job. I revel in my job. I would much rather spend time here at work than face the uncertainties and discomforts of vacationing in some strange place where I'd have to make decisions in unknown circumstances and they wouldn't cook the food the way my Mommy used to make it.

The old saying about "...nobody on his death bed ever said 'I wish I'd spent more time at the office' " may not really apply to me.

And yes, I do have an appreciation of just how incredibly fortunate I am to be in such a position.

tanstaafl.

yes, but them that habitually burn off every hour they get, find little sympathy.

In reply to:

---

No buying or selling but, you may xfer sick leave to others with great need.

Now THAT is a great idea. Very cool indeed.

---

There is also something here called Family Sick Leave.

It's just regular sick leave when used to deal with an ailing family member. Very popular with the single parents.

Accounting for whether use is personal/family is part of timecarding.
There is a limit of 240 hrs use per year. I don't know any who came close to that.

edit: 240 limited also by accrual.

Tony

Do you have more about that "No loss of accrued time in Calif."

Unfortunately, I don't have any more information on it other than what I said above. I couild very well be completely wrong about it, since it was a point of contention when the new company took over ten years ago and the laws may have changed since then.

For those not aware of the situation in the UK, this is how I understand it to be:

Typical holiday provision is 20 days, with 25 increasingly common (most of the jobs I've had offered 25 days). These are paid at full salary. Longer service or contract negoations will often result in more holiday. I've never heard of any company offering reduced holiday to new staff, however it is common that you can't take any time off for the first three month probationary period.

Most companies won't rollover time without special arrangement and will reserve the right to make you take at least part of your holiday when they tell you to and at short notice (ie. if there's not much work on).

There are no personal days/duvet days/etc, just sick days (larger companies might offer personal days, but the're just sick days that you don't have to pretend to be sick for).

A company can't set a limit for the number of sick days you take, but they'll start asking questions if you take too many as it will be affecting their business. Some operate on 'sick events' so if you take a day off, you might as wekk take a full week, as they count consecutive days as one event.

As far as I am aware, there is no obligation for a company to pay you for a sick day, but many do so out of goodwill. If you have more than 5 days off, you can claim benefit (minimum wage) from the state.

There are various laws that protect genuinely sick people from losing their job, but I'm not aware of the details.